Here's the bad news Dawk.  In the first scenario it was YOU trying to apply the bad beat to the other player as he had flopped 2pair. You were a 1 in 5 chance to hit your flush IF you stay all the way to the river (all-in when it hits may well look like a steal/bluff to your opponent, you were asking to be called by ANY K-good kicker.)  Your opponent had 6 cards to draw to for the boat negating Any flush, and, HE had You Beat on the flop.  All-In is very risky EVERY time.  I would suggest betting your draw more modestly as any tells you have may give you more information as well as letting you get out at the river as you would HAVE to suspect him for 2 pair after he called flop and, turn bets.  Maybe even HE goes all-in on river letting you get off your inferior flush  (Pot odds say that you need 5 times the amount of the bet ALREADY in the pot to bet or, call any action on the flop 4 to the flush, 10 X the bet or call on the river for that FLUSH CHASE to be correct.) 

 Deserve's got nothin' to do with it. 

SPARKY8811,  Slayer of Minions

were you there? He didn't say anything about any betting on the flop. It could have been check/check on the flop. Usually 4 to the flush on the flop is 9 outs, about 33% to hit by the river, not 20%.   Also, you WANT it to look like a bluff when you have the nuts ;-p, on any street.  

Your analysis on flush draws being 20% to hit on the flop is incorrect.

Also, you don't know if it was checked by both players on the flop. If the guy with two pair checked the flop, then how can it be a bad beat if his opponent hits his draw while getting a free card? Also, there aren't 6 outs to hit his full house, there are 4 outs. Even if the flop was bet, 33% to hit is less of a bad beat than 9%. Also, we don't know what type of betting was done on the flop. Hitting a 4 outter when your opponent goes all in on the turn is definitely a bad beat.

AA/KK losing to 3,4 suited (whether all-in preflop or against str8 or flush draws and against str8 & flush draws) is less of a bad beat than what happened in the above hand.

I'm curious - what book did you read to learn about pot odds and counting outs?

 Also, if hitting a 4 outter after the turn isn't a bad beat, are you saying that only 2 outters are bad beats?

yeah......i wasnt shooting for a discussion like this, or a definition of what a bad beat really is. just my pissed off moments i end up with and feel like posting lol, is that a better title?

Being away from the Poker Pub for the summer, I've played some with friends and a lot of Full Tilt, which is fun. You can play for money or pride. (Free chips.) You can play 6, 9, 18 or 90 person games. I usually play 18 or 90. You can play for $250, $2000, $10,000 or even more. If you get into the top 2 or 3, you do quite well, especially if you play the 90 games. I have gotten quite a few 1st, 2nds and 3rds playing for various amounts. I started with the $250 games and worked up to more, and built the money to over $400,000. Doesn't mean much, since it is not real money, but neither is the Poker Pub's.

I got into a $250 18 person game last night and won it. Well, I thought, I'll see if I can win another one. It was getting late, so I got into another $250 game because I didn't care if I lost that much. On one of the first hands, I got nailed with Big Slick suited against K 6 offsuit, with a 6 on the River, of course. A 93-7% shot. OK, I thought, that was a short one, so I'll try one more.

Now, calculate the total odds on hands that knocked me out. I know the individual odds, but collectively. It will give you math wizards a project:

Game 3: A 9 against Q 9. 2 9s hit the board by the Turn. A Q on the River. 93-7%. I had to try another game. This could not go on like this much longer. I thought.

Game 4: I have AQ. A Q hits the board on the flop. I raise big, then again on the turn. Player calls all the way down. He has 2 8s. What do you suppose hits on the River? You got it. An 8 for a 95-5% shot.

Game 5: I have an AJ. An Ace hits on the flop. I bet big. One caller all the way. They have J2. What come on the last 2 cards. You guessed it. J2. I don't even want to try to calculate that runner runner, but the 2 on the River was a 93-7% shot.

Now it was getting comical. I looked around to see if someone was playing some kind of cyber trick. It was past 2 a.m. and time for bed. I'd try again tomorrow.

First game: I have A 8 of Diamonds and am short stacked and raise. Guy on my left raises me all in. I call. He has 72 of spades. Guess what he flops? A flush. I know that is a 13% hance.

Can't give up now, this has to change. So try another one:

I have garbage for a long stretch, then get Big Slick suited. I raise, call 2 all-in bets and there is another Big Slick and an AJ. I know immediately that the AJ will win, just not sure how. Of course, he does, with Broadway on the River. A 91-9% shot to hit a Queen.

I still have a few chips, get Big Slick next hand against AQ. What does he get on the River? Guess. Another 93-7% shot.

Next game I get KJ of spades the first hand and raise. 2 callers. J66 hits the board. Check around to me. I bet fairly big. 2 callers. A trash card hits. I bet again. 1 caller. The River? An Ace. Of course, he has an Ace and another 93-7%.

In none of those games did I get into the money, and I had been making it about 80 to 90% of the time. I tried one more  before bedtime and finally made it to the top 4 in an 18 game, so got some money. The knock-out hand? I have QJ, short stacked and go all in against an A6. I hit a Q on the turn, but I know what's coming. You guessed right again.

Another 93-7% shot. So, put that all together. I was over a 90% favorite in all but one of those hands, and won none.

Shouldn't you win maybe half of them, or more? 

Figure the odds of that happening. It has to be pretty slim. 

Being away from the Poker Pub for the summer, I've played some with friends and a lot of Full Tilt, which is fun. You can play for money or pride. (Free chips.) You can play 6, 9, 18 or 90 person games. I usually play 18 or 90. You can play for $250, $2000, $10,000 or even more. If you get into the top 2 or 3, you do quite well, especially if you play the 90 games. I have gotten quite a few 1st, 2nds and 3rds playing for various amounts. I started with the $250 games and worked up to more, and built the money to over $400,000. Doesn't mean much, since it is not real money, but neither is the Poker Pub's.

I got into a $250 18 person game last night and won it. Well, I thought, I'll see if I can win another one. It was getting late, so I got into another $250 game because I didn't care if I lost that much. On one of the first hands, I got nailed with Big Slick suited against K 6 offsuit, with a 6 on the River, of course. A 93-7% shot. OK, I thought, that was a short one, so I'll try one more.

Now, calculate the total odds on hands that knocked me out. I know the individual odds, but what are they collectively. It will give you math wizards a project:

Game 3: A 9 against Q 9. 2 9s hit the board by the Turn. A Q on the River. 93-7%. I had to try another game. This could not go on like this much longer. I thought.

Game 4: I have AQ. A Q hits the board on the flop. I raise big, then again on the turn. Player calls all the way down. He has 2 8s. What do you suppose hits on the River? You got it. An 8 for a 95-5% shot.

Game 5: I have an AJ. An Ace hits on the flop. I bet big. One caller all the way. They have J2. What came on the last 2 cards. You guessed it. J2. I don't even want to try to calculate that runner runner, but the 2 on the River was a 93-7% shot, although he had 5 outs which made his chances about 11%.

Now it was getting comical. I looked around to see if someone was playing some kind of cyber trick. It was past 2 a.m. and time for bed. I'd try again tomorrow.

First game next day: I have A 8 of Diamonds and am short stacked and raise. Guy on my left raises me all in. I call. He has 72 of spades. Guess what he flops? A flush. Of course. I know that is a 13% chance.

Can't give up now, this has to change. So try another one:

I have garbage for a long stretch, then get Big Slick suited. I raise, call 2 all-in bets and there is another Big Slick and an AJ. I know immediately that the AJ will win, just not sure how. Of course, he does, with Broadway on the River. Figure that one out. There was an A K and 10 on the board, then a 91-9% shot to hit a Queen. Does that blow your mind?

I still have a few chips, get Big Slick next hand against AQ. What does he get on the River? Guess. Another 93-7% shot.

Next game I get KJ of spades the first hand and raise. 2 callers. J66 hits the board. Check around to me. I bet fairly big. 2 callers. A trash card hits. I bet again. 1 caller. The River? An Ace. Of course, he has an Ace and another 93-7%.

In none of those games did I get into the money, and I had been making it about 80 to 90% of the time. I tried one more  before bedtime and finally made it to the top 4 in an 18 game, so got some money. The knock-out hand? I have QJ, short stacked and go all in against an A6. I hit a Q on the turn, but I know what's coming. You guessed right again.

Another 93-7% shot. So, put that all together. I was over a 90% favorite in all but one of those hands, and won none.

Shouldn't you win maybe half of them, or more? 

Figure the odds of that happening. It has to be pretty slim. 

You might want to read my post on the "It's not just Holdem that's Sick" forum. At least you know you have company.

"I was always taught to respect my elders but it keeps getting harder and harder to find one."